My 2 cents !

[braz24]

Hi Guys,

Take my comments and questions in a good, positive light. I'm just interested in what the real story is and just thinking through all this hoping to see if there is a good, healthy solution to all the commotion within the 5F system of kung fu. I'm not interested in stepping on any toes or "flamming" anyone whatsoever or "trolling" to cause any problems.

I can totally see what bridgeport says and means. If everything that has been said about the two individuals in question is true (I'm not aruing for or against that either...just being objective for the sake of "conversation"), then the "silly little fools" (quote) didn't just leave or give up. Unless Ark specifically said to these guys, that they were practicing 5F kung fu incorrectly, then in the minds of these "silly little fools" (SLF for short...I'm not trying to be sarcastic here either...just trying to use a little brevity) they think their kung fu is correct and that they are passing it along as "right." The the naive student walks in the door of their (SLF's) schools and has a burning desire to learn traditional 5F kung fu. The new students are accepted (money to learn is given) and as far as the new students think, they are learning what Ark taught the SLFs...The SLF are passing down what they think is the right kung fu to their students.

That is one possible scenario. The real question boils down to this...Did Ark just "babysit" the SLFs to the pay the rent and allow them to practice incorrect kung fu? If this is the case then the SLFs simply "don't know any better" and think they're practicing and teaching exactly what Ark taught them. In that scenario, then the SLFs can't be blamed. For what ever reason, the SLFs simply didn't quit kung fu and go away. They kept going with what Ark intentionally didn't correct and now the 5F system has a real problem. I won't get into the alledged teaching certificate/credentials question here.

ON THE OTHER HAND...If the SLFs didn't "pay the price" of learning from Ark in hard work, sweat, and pain, and the SLF INTENTIONALLY teach a version of kung fu they they completely made up....a "style" they call 5F and the SLFs KNOW is not 5F and (once again) are intentionally deceptive...then that is a whole other matter.

With all this in mind...which scenario is it? Ark allowed the SLFs to learn bad kung fu? Or did the SLFs become 5F "wannabes", never put in the work and made up a ficticious style (for the most part) and called it ARk's 5F kung fu? I'm asking anyone on this forum who knows. If it isn't anyone of these two scenarios, what is it?

If the whole problem stems from scenario 1 (as I've listed it in this post), then how can you blame the SLFs about what they are doing? IN that case, they think they are teaching good and correct 5F as far as Ark taught them. If Ark didn't specifically tell them that they were practicing completely incorrect or bad 5F kung fu, then how can anyone find fault with them. Ark knows 5F kung fu better than anyone and Chinese culture doesn't always make sense to "American logic." I don't live in California and what info I know is pretty much from reading the forums on other sites including this one. If we (figuritively) assume that this is the case for the SLFs, how do we get them to "accept" correct 5F kung fu when they (the SLFs) thought Ark was teaching them that (good and correct kung fu) in the first place? See where the problem is here? If Ark simply kept them around to pay the rent and then hoped the rent paying SLFs would go away...well they didn't and Ark's though processes (culturally based or not) were flawed. I would never question Ark and his kung fu...but this problem has come back to bite the 5F system in the keester.

If scenario two is correct and the SLFs KNOW (beyond any doubt) that their kung fu is wrong and made up and are looking for naive students, glory, and fame and what ever...then they are simply wrong. Then in that case, maybe they (the SLfs) should change the name of their style, quit claiming it as traditional kung fu taught to them by Ark and simply list it as eclectic and move on. I know that many of you that have deep roots in 5F would prefer to have the SLFs stop all claims and quit teaching...period. My guess is that isn't going to happen though.

The really bad thing about all this is that the 5F system Ark left is what is suffering. If the SLFs are knowingly being deceitful, then their naive students are being exploited and misinformed. They in turn will eventually pass on the incorrect 5F system, thinking they are practicing and teaching it right.

Regardless of the scenario, TRADITIONAL 5F kung fu as you guys know it is in peril. How many people are out there in California that know 5F kung fu that Ark trained Gary in? Compare that to the number of people that the SLFs have for students. I don't live there but based on what I read, I get the impression that the SLFs style outnumbers the people that Gary taught and that Gary's students taught. IF THAT IS TRUE (and I don't know...you guys in California know) then using simple probability, the SLFs version will have a better chance of "survival" and lasting through the years. What Ark passed on to Gary and so forth is in peril and to lose that would be a tragedy. I hope I'm wrong but something needs to be done. To lose authentic and traditional 5F kung fu (forever) as Ark taught would be terrible. I hope that this is or will not be the case EVER...But, I digress....this is a possible end-result of this 5F infighting though.

It is too bad that scenario 1 wasn't 100% the case. The solution would be much more straight forward but difficult nonetheless.

I wonder what Ark would do and say if he were here now (not to be confused with, "what would Jesus do?" on TV and bumper-stickers...no disrespect intended)? Would he ignore this probelm and think that it would go away? Or would he take steps to make things right, one way or the other. The problem is if Ark were to tell the SLFs that they were allowed to learn bad kung fu, then Ark could either let it go at that or teach them the correct way. I think then the SLFs would accept and change their kung fu because Ark is the the proverbial" horses mouth" and was 5F kung fu. No one else was the authority in America on it.

Ark unfortunately is not with us now and can't fix things. I really don't see the SLFs accepting anyone else's version of 5F (true, traditional, and correct and all) unless Ark ws the one who told them all this. But then again, I don't know the SLFs personally either.

Hopefully, this long post will get people to think and explore possible solutions and try to fix the problem. This problem is like a rotting tree....The tree will rot from the inside out...the tree looks great until a wind blows in and the trunk snaps...revealing the rot that had been brewing for years. In any case, regardless of why the rot set in to begin with, the tree is dead.

From an outsider's point of view, metaphorically the rot has set in to the 5F kung fu tree and we all know that it is here. How do we collectively cure the tree and let the tree grow on and prosper?

There has to be a good solution out there and this long post was written to act as a catalyst to get the style to that point...whatever that solution may be.

Again, if scenario one and two aren't the case or the problem, can some one post what the real problem is? Maybe that will spark someone's imagination and we call can come up with a good solution to all this!

Can anyone shed more light on any of this?

Again...I am not interested in stepping on anyone's toes, making them mad or generating any negativity at all. The spirit and intention of this post is to generate more positive thinking and hopefully help 5F kung fu prosper and live on for future generations.

That's my two cents...

Respectfully submitted,

Jeff

[mic]

Thank you Jeff for bringing your view on the subject of the SLF.
I don't think anyone on this forum will be offended by your reasoning and your questions.
I cannot bring any answer because I wasn't there. I can only give my impressions.
Personally, I do not like to see someone call himself or herself Sifu, Master or Grand Master. It is for the students to do that.
In our group, I have never heard Gary be called anything than Gary and it is not for lack of respect for him or his knowledge! Our respect is not a display or exhibit... should I call it internal?
If someone is called Sifu, I feel there is a limit to embellishing titles. GM Wong was not called GM until after his passing and it is hard to fathom someone of his lineage to call "himself" GM. How can one's title be equal to the title of one's teacher. I cannot comprehend that either. Then, besides titles, there are the claims of being the sole inheritor, the first, second, or last in the lineage. The age of a so-called Sifu bothers me too. From looking at different websites, I see folks in their 30's giving themselves eyebrow raising titles. In numerous places, including work environment, I have found the problem to be the ego and I wish and wished "egotomies" (like lobotomies) would be or have been the chosen medical or psychological procedure for this malignant tumor. Finally, I just wish that, no matter how much we think we know, we would remain open to still be open to learning more. That's when the smaller ego comes in handy!
I'll be looking forward to reading other points of view.
Mic
PS: First, second of last doesn't make anyone better than the ones in between!

[bridgeport]

Funny world we live in.

[bridgeport]

Braz, let me give you an analogy, Its not perfect but it will suffice,
Think of it like you have a pistol and a group of people who know next to nothing about it want to learn how to use it. there are a series of steps you would have to go through, like first explaining that it is dangerous and could hurt or kill them or another, assuming you could get over that hump, you yourself might want to assess them for instability(you dont want to give a gun to a whack nut).. assuming you get by that you need to teach them the basic mechanics of how it works and about the things that make it work(cartridges) and its various components. Then you would need to teach them to load, how to hold it, how to stand, how to carry it and finally how to combine those elements of knowlege to make it shoot (and in the right direction, hopefully)
Now remember, these people are not from your culture, they did not grow up watching john wayne and WWII movies where every child understands how a pistol is supposed to work and or the devastating potential for power inherent in that tool.
Now... Enter Ark Yuey Wong. He would not even teach people from another culture until the late 1950's and there are many reasons for this other than white folk dont like the chinese except as laundry people and reauranteurs if you catch my drift
so the vested interest is different. Now, hold on and follow my train of thouhgt here....... Wong: ok boy you want to learn ??
lets see what you can learn... OK boy keep going looks good boy
Now... If you could learn and he could see that then you could learn, if not ... well keep practicing boy. Very simple very clear
and VAstly core complex than shooting a pistol will ever be
so some people were there... and they got what they got
I think it is very funny world, but thats the way it is. A person might want to be a champion gymnast but only a tiny, tiny fraction will make it to the olympics... and of them only a tiny fraction will become the gold medalist.. this does not stop many from doing their practice.. right or wrong. it is simply the nature of things to continue on, or, end.

[jingwah]

Hi Everyone

I just wanted to respond briefly to Brazz24's long email. There are always two ways to do something. The Best and The Rest. What we call 5 Families is especially challenging because there are so many possible left turns and missteps along the way.

I met Ark Yuey Wong once or twice and can only tell you from experience that although most of the old traditions for meeting and learning from a master had died, the attitudes hadn't. I could tell he wouldn't waste his time and wouldn't repeat a lesson ad nauseum unless he believed a student was serious.
I believe he would go out of his way for students he thought were serious. For the others, I think he gave them what he thought they wanted or could handle. Gary told me WAY once said that "anybody can teach you to fight" and that what was here was beyond mere fighting. So what he taught The Rest will help you in a fight. They could punch and kick and stand in a horse. But he didn't go beyond that with them, didn't go deeper. Or, that is not what they wanted. One way or another you had to demonstrate committment or else he would fob you off. I've seen many not very committed students come to class over the last 20 years and it is amazing how long some of them used to come and still not get it. You can show them move after move but if they won't put the work in, it's nearly a waste (anytime you practice or try to show something to someone it isn't really a waste for you, it is part of your training but it is a frustration).

I think you also need to remember that lots of people have cashed in on Oriental Arts in general. I used to study acupuncture at a school run by one of the guys (A white guy and probably Jewish by birth) who helped get the law in Cali changed to allow acupuncture into the general community (authorities turned a blind eye to its practice in Chinatown). He used to laugh about all the 4th,5th and 6th generation "Master Acupuncturists" who were boxboys in Chinatown markets when the law changed. A few wound up in prison for various ethics issues. Some are still around. The challenge to make a quick buck by making claims is very strong.
There was a guy who came to our class, a personal trainer to the stars type, with some A-List celebrities for clients. If he studied a full six months with us I'll try to eat a live horse raw. (Fortunately there aren't many spare horses in town and I'm pretty sure I'm right anyway) But his website makes it appear he is a genuine master with decades of experience (he is clever enough not to make too explicit a claim in print - but I'd love to know what he tells people about the Cinnabor Lotus Horse Claw - taught to him by WAY himself, of course)
I think The Rest (AKA SLF's) are a little of both. Because they were present in class with WAY they really think they know something AND they want to make some $$. We should ignore it.

Jingwah

[braz24]

Hi All,

I totally agree with you (Mic) about the titles that people want and why they seem to want them. For martial arts and most things (if not all) in life, I will be simply thrilled to just be a student, regardless of how much I learn or how good I get at any thing. I've never had that kind of issue. I have no need of a title to go with anything I do.

Besides ego, I can't fathom why there is any need for any titles in martial arts. If a person claims to be a master, grandmaster of anything like that, is that a supposed selling point to make you and your school more authentic than the next guy? For as many people I've come across in the martial arts claiming to be a GM , then martial art schools in the US are doing cut-throat competition with each other. So once everyone and their brother (or sister) becomes a grandmaster out there, what's the next highest title...great grandmaster? Uber-grandmaster? Mega-grandmaster? Enormous-grandmaster?

If I kept with you bridgeport I guess the SLFs simply didn't learn everything they needed to back many if any of their claims in 5F (didn't learn how to shoot the pistol so-to-speak) kung fu. They simply bought the gun and expect now to be THE AUTHORITIES on pistols and plan to teach you ALL that they know or improvised to say they know. Regardless if they know anything about the pistol in the first place. Right?

It's kinda like the way things were (are?) in the PKA (professional kickboxing association). Boxers would come to a martial arts school , earn a yellow belt (usually the first colored belt past white in many styles) and learn one or two kicks and then show up at the PKA fights. They would kick the requisite 8 times per round and then spend the rest of the time boxing with no kicks. So much for kickboxing but they had the title of kickboxer...bad example on my part. The problem in 5F is much more serious.

Be that as it may, is there any good solution out there to remedy any of this with the SLFs? If there is no solution then what? We can't let the "rot" set in any further and kill the proverbial tree.

Jeff

[braz24]

That was a pretty enlightening post jingwah...I'll need to read it a few more times and let things sink in a bit more.

Jeff

[bridgeport]

I would just read Garys posts. I think he answered the questions.

[jingwah]

Hi Everyone

A couple of comments on titles, rankings and belts. WAY was a Grandmaster when he was in his 20's and was so noted. Although a young age for a Grandmaster is often a Red Flag Alert in his case it was justified. That is because he went through a traditional process and was certified in that process. He was kind of a phenom. The titles, rankings and belts were all very important and were always taken seriously. The problem today is that there many, many people who are outside of any traditional belting or ranking process. Some even self-promote. There are also many legitimate groups that hand out belts. There is no central authority verifying the authenticity of a belt. Gary will tell you that to get his certificate he had to demonstrate forms to a committee of which WAY was a member. He was given permission to teach, but not given a title. That may be because he is not Chinese. I don;t know.

As a group we have adopted Gary's view toward titles, rankings, and belts. Since WAY is dead there is no way for us to be ranked in the traditional way so we have simply stayed out of it. Gary has given certificates to some of his students on the basis of his faith in their skill. We learn because we want to, not because we want a title.

Why Belts? Well, there is a human need to be recognized for accomplishment, skill and time put in and belts do that. In a traditional society where the arts are held in esteem they also show a proficiency and suggest a developed character.

They weren't designed by a consumer driven culture for a populace influenced by ads and sales. Nor were they a vehicle for making money. Now that they are no title is in some sense better than any title.

Jingwah

[jingwah]

...I forgot to say that in a traditional society serious about the arts the titles indicated a true heirarchy. You called the classmates who were ahead of you Senior Brother or Senior Sister and those behind you Junior Brother or sister. Your teacher was a sifu and there were masters and grand masters beyond your teacher. When bestowed by an agreed on authority (such as a Shaolin Abbot) titles meant a great deal and indicated how far along you were on the path. You moved up from junior brother or sister to teacher to master and perhaps grand master. It was also important in choosing with whom to study. The Grandmaster might perhaps only teach teachers so you would need to find an appropriate schoool...

[G.S. N.G.K.]

Well I guess I will add my penny to the thoughts posted here. Having known Ricky since 1975, one of his problems next to EGO and his own self importance, is he mixed training styles and became a "Master" of many styles but good at none. Also, after he "left" school in the early eighties the moves of the styles and forms became mixed up and since the master never corrects himself, everyone can see what he has turned into.
Not knowing Ronny till he popped out of his hole in 2005, I would blame his form on lousy memory and no practice with proper correction. There are few of us who have Ng Ga Kuen as first and only style. I was lucky to be there with Sifu Wong and with Se Ming as my teachers, and we still do the same movements as Sifu Wong did and as we have Sifu's Video's to prove it; not the ones some of these so called Grandmasters paid for. (There is a story about the paid for video's but that is for another time.)
As for the style being in trouble I think not. The Internet has brought a way for people to see for themselves what is right or wrong and that is why some are upset and cry so loud because, after so many years, they are exposed for who they really are instead of who they said they were. Just as you who have studied with Gary call him Gary I still call Se Ming, Se Ming and the only one I ever called Sifu was Master Wong. Titles are not something you give yourself because if you do, maybe it is time for a gut check. But then, there are some out there with no guts, just Big Mouths. Sorry that this became a little long, I guess it was 2 cents. George Sanchez "Paz"

[jay]

Anyone hear of this guy? He claims to have studied with Ark Wong at the Benevolent Society. He looks a little young to have done that. www.gdmaa.com/more_sifu.htm

And another: Antwione Alfero www.whippingwillow.org/history.htm

And yet another: www.innerstrengthmartialarts.org/instructors.htm

[Gary Steuer]

Actually folks, you've gone over the 2 cents and I need to return some change to you !
Truth is, I'm really proud of everyone I know here, whether I've met you face to face or not ! I am not proud, but really embarrassed for those jerks who try to start problems just to feed their own egos .. The whole thing comes down to that , EGO.... These guys are so sorry that we have all come out of the woodwork , united as one and have made them look silly ! Our West Los Angeles group has been together since the early 70's, and for the most part we are still together ! Let's see, that's 36 + years, not too bad.. PS.. My bank doesn't recognise any titles , so make sure the spelling is correct on the check .. Gary Steuer.. Thanks, That's my nickel...

[braz24]

Hi All,

I just read a response to a post Gary placed in the Kung fu Magazine forum. The reply stated that this gentleman thinks that "the more the merrier" and that good old fashioned competition in a controlled environment is a good thing...I believe he said it was a motivator.

I have to say that I don't understand his reply to begin with but will take issue with the competition statement...I'm assuming by competition this guy meant sparring between schools? If this is the case, I have been apart of this sparring with other styles including Chinese styles. There are some good benefits to sparring for sure...gaining a sense of timing, distancing, working on combinations, footwork, etc. The problem as I see it whether you use the point sparring system or the old AAU rules (from my tae kwon do years as a teenager) you have to "dilute" your style and "revert" to a generic, watered-down kickboxing style...in other words, if you were studying 5F kung fu, you get to literally throw out 95% (totally unscientific) of what the techniques that you learned that make 5F...well...5F..Make sense? These techniques are thrown out simply to conform to the rules and also safety/insurance reasons. You're not allowed to claw to the face, strike to the groin, or any or a myriad of techniques...of course, some of that is for good reason...Even a person that practices muay thai in America USUALLY (but not always) goes to a tournament and has to throw out elbow and knee strikes...Let's face it, muay thai is much closer to the Americanized version of kickboxing than 5F is...Muay thai is a very effective system to be sure too. The K-1 fighters even have to leave elbow strikes a the curb.

My opinion of point sparring is mine alone so no one need be offended. Point sparring is a stop-and-go game of tag, racing to four points. The ref tells you to fight and the first person to make contact causes the ref to stop the fight then and there...then it is up to the two judges to raise a colored flag...if there are two colored flags of the same color, a point is scored for that color's fighter. If there are two differently colored flags, no point is scored. The fighters are taken to the center of the fight space and the ref tells them to fight again...rinse and repeat until someone get 4 points first. So what problem do I have with this? In the rules, you are not allowed to make "excessive" contact. You get one warning and then the second gets you disqualified. Excessive contact to most sparring matches that I (used to ) participate in or watch is what a boxer would call a good, clean, solid hit. So, most point sparring ends up as a taggin match. If you are faster than me you will likely win the race to 4 and win the match. Big hairy deal! Did the strikes you throw even have any good power behind them? Would the technique have saved your skin in a streetfight? Where is the ref when you are in a street fight to stop the match and look toward the judges for a point? Point sparring is unrelaistic in all respects listed and (this is my main point) you must forget 95% of what your style entails that you so painstakingly (is that a word?) studied to compete in it.

So what about the AAU rules I mentioned? It used to be 3 rounds of 3 minutes apiece. The action does not stop until someone steps out of the fighting space or the round's time expires.
You can make good solid contact but you can not go all out and do any "headhunting"...which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. We all want to get up and go to work next day regardless of the outcome of a fight. The bad thing here is that you end up fighting a generic, watered-down kickboxing style again mentioned earlier....devoid of most things that your style of martial arts entails and is integral to. I think of AAU rules (from the old days...I don't know if they even exist today) are better option than the point sparring category.

In America, lawyers reign supreme and insurance rates are a problem so I can see why some of this came to be. There has to be a better way to spar regardless of the reason (competition or simply practice). I know all about NHB and MMA...before elbow surgery and a bulged disc and two "black discs" that is what I used to do...way before there was any money or TV coverage...I like MMA and the rules that USED to be around...they are getting progressively water-down as the years go by BUT even in an MMA match, you end up fighting a generic, watered-down kickboxing method...unless you are a true muay thai fighter...most MMA guys are not. In any case, I don't see MMA matches as a good option here.

So what would the answer be? I don't know...I thought I would post this to incite more talking hereon this forum. I don't think san da (sp?) is the answer either. I think that if there was an "inner-school" 5F forms competition that that would be a step forward..the thing is, everyone needs to do the same forms...no body elses creation..simply traditional 5F..not to music and nothing created and no acrobatics either...straight, traditional 5F.

We all know that forms practice is integral to 5F kung fu. If you work on all the techniques in the forms with a partner and work toward executing them at full speed and power until they are second nature...that's not sparring but that is the point for the forms in the first place.

A better option is to work two-man empty hand sets. I don't know if 5F has many if any empty hand sets but those are great for saving your life on the street AND you get to use 100% of the techniques that you so diligently study in 5F kung fu. I know choy li fut is loaded with two man empty hand sets.....hung gar seems to have two or three...remember...empty hand sets...not two-man weapon sets (which are great too). In fact, in choy li fut, when you learn the small plum blossom set and the golden leopard sets, you have just learned both sides of the two-man fighting set of the same name. Does 5F have something like that?

That doesn't solve the problem of sparring competition and the caveats I listed earlier either. Maybe some one out there can think of a good way to spar for competition that allows you to use your true kung fu while sparring.

If you are into point sparring or sparring under slightly different rules, keep on going! You have to do what works for you and no offense was intended.

I'm not sure what the poster from the other forum meant when he said something about the more the merrier...I have to say, I would disagree to a point. More people learning true 5F and learning correctly, working heard and striving for perfection and all that...yes, that's a good thing. More so-called 5F(like the SLFs seemed to have concocted) as competition? No way!

My two cents and just my opinions.

Respectfully,

Jeff

[nggakuen]

Jeff,
I believe in “nothing is absolute”, its outcome depends on when, where, who, what and how.

I think if you disagree in certain view points or not sure what the poster in Kung Fu Magazine forum mean. You should ask him directly over there. I’m sure he won’t be offended by your posting. His name is Robert Williams, has been training in Ng Ga Kuen for 20 years, had been to tournaments, encountered street violence; active in intraschool / interschool activities within and outside of Ng Ga.

Btw, I am not offended by your posting either.

Seming