Forms and Applications

[Gary Steuer]

If there are any questions as to movements in any of our forms or what is the application then this will be a good thread. It'll be good to see how many different ideas will flow as to applications for the movements...GM Wong told me that there were at least 3 different applications for each movement..... there is always the hard, hitting, stopping technique and then there is the fluid, moving, controlling technique !

[palmdown]

Gary:

I know you've heard this question before.
In the Salute, are the downward arm movements with the hands open meant to be strikes or blocks?
I've seen others practicing the form as if they're one or the other. If they use the movements as strikes, then they use thrusting movements that require the arms be bent before striking; if blocks, they don't change the angle of their arms—which are already slightly bent—and seem to "sweep" down an incoming strike.
Can the movements be used in both ways? I know my description is difficult to visualize, but I hope you can make sense of it.

palmdown

[jingwah]

Hi Palmdown
Your question reminds me of something Gary always says - use your blocks as a strike. Make your blocks strong enough to cause pain to the attacker. In that sense all blocks are strikes too.

jingwah

[redmantis3]

If we're thinking about the same movement (the two hands shooting down, just after the double hooks to the sides)

I believe (as most of us do) that it could be used in several ways:

In an internal way, as a Dim Mak strike to the Dan Tien utilizing a double fingertip thrust at a downward 45 degree angle.

In a External way, it is striking an on coming kick with a downward Iron Finger thrust (that anyone can achieve this level of skill nowadays is almost unheard of).

As a practical application, with a little more circularity in the movement, it could be a deflection of a low kick.

I think this variety of application is true of most movements in our forms and is one reason you'll see minute differences in the performances of different lineages. A movement the varies greatly however, has a completely different intention and application and is most likely not correct (in accordance with tradition) (i.e. the movement I described, I've also seen done as a double finger strike to the throat which is no longer a variation of application but a completely new application).

Steve Perez
S5CBA

[jay]

There is another application here. After the double punch you roll the fists to strike, flick the fingers to the eyes and bring both palms down to the thighs palms facing foward and fingers pointing to the sides. They then both circle outward and down to the center, fingers pointing down. This movement will catch a kick and twist the opponent face down to the ground. If the kick is not caught it is a deflection when bringing the hands to the sides.

[Gary Steuer]

There are always more than two applications for each movement, A hard movement and a soft ( Controlled ) movement. the arms coming down could be blocking. or they could be striking. Practice them both ways at different times. always grab someone who is relaxing at the moment and ask them to go over the move with you. Then you'll know which works best for you and which ones you need to practice.

[mic]

Got a question about punches and double punches after watching a few videos of forms...
I see people do their punches barely below their shoulder level. If you opponent is your heigth, wouldn't it be better to punch a little lower, like below the rib cage? I find that I punch lower because I feel more muscle groups working that way but... can I get some opininons? Thanks!

[Gary Steuer]

Punches should be kept at chest level . Most people overextend themselves and leave themselves open for a counter or will overextend and get injured... Your horse will make up the difference in distance, not your reach.

[mark]

QUESTION ABOUT BREATHING

Hi Gary,

I have a question regarding breathing when your training your horse. I've been taught to breath through my nose and out my mouth in a rhythmic pattern.We would focus at our Tan Tien as we inhaled through our nose and expanded our abdomen and then exhale out our mouth in a smooth natural way. We were always instructed to avoid forcing the breath and therefore avoid any undue strain.

My question is why not exhale out the nose as they do in yoga?
I've read about some of the Northern styles that also recommend breathing out the nose but never the Southern styles. What were you taught?

Thanks Gary,

Mark

[George Sanchez Ng Ga Kuen]

Hello Gary I hope you don't mind me giving my thoughts about breathing to Mark. The way we were told to breath at Daly St. is, In through the nose giving the brain fresh [o2] and [Chi] then the breath goes down the back of the lungs to the bottom of the lungs [Tan Tien]] up the front of the lungs [chest] then out threw the mouth [Keeping the tip your tongue on the roof of your mouth as a breath regulator] in a steady flow.. Breathing this way brings in fresh[02] and Chi with every breath in and expels used [o2] and chi with each breath out. Hope that helps you out Mark! Good Health and Good Training.. George Sanchez Na Ga Kuen

[blackravin]

Have to agree with Sifu George Sanchez, I was taught the same way.. I was told to picture the breath coming in thru my nose traveling up to the crown of my head and then going down my spinal cord/down to the anus region (thats the reason why we tighten the anus, so their is no escape of chi), under the groin and up to the tan tien and then up thru the front and out the mouth. I believe the concept of keeping the tounge touching the top of your palet is to have a continous flow of the chi..

A little trick I was taught to get the breath to the tan tien is when inhaling taking a deep swallow; although this might sound a little weird it actually works.. You can feel the air traveling all the way down to your lower abdoman region of your body and right to the tan tien.. (just my opinion/remember I am just a student).

El Cuervo/Blackravin ;D

[Gary Steuer]

Good answers ! You guys are right about the breathing. When a breath is brought in through the nose you relax the muscles around the lungs and you can get a fuller breath. When you have taken in all you can then you relax the lower abdomen and breath in again and fill the lower portion of your lungs. Almost like taking in two breaths. Then you are able to start working the Tan Tien..................

[jay]

Happy Holidays to all!......
What about people like myself with a deviated septum who can barely breath in through their nose? It becomes a labor to breathe that way. I have to strain to get the O2 in my nose. I have had 3 nose operations, the last one around 1970 and still can't breath right. I originally broke it when I was 16 years old. I'm not thrilled about going under the knife again......unless it's Gary swinging a darn do at me............. I feel the breathing works best when practicing forms slow to moderate speed in order to focus on the timing of the breath (utilizing the above information) with the movement. When you need it with speed it will be there as well as the movement.

[George Sanchez Ng Ga Kuen]

Jay, One thing I've learned through the years is that some of us have to adapt to injuries. I had to after a motorcycle accident [hit by a truck, drunk driver] and after doctors but me back together and said I would never walk right again [Western Medicine ha] It took some years, lots of hard training,Dit Da Jow and Will Power. But eventually I was hooking poles for Pac Bell and teaching class at Daly st. and nobody knew what happened to me unless I told them. What all that means Jay is that we must learn to adapt to what we have if we want to proceed in our journey.One last thought, The Way We Train is the Way We Will Be... Good Luck, George Ng Ga Kuen [Happy New Year to All]

[Gary Steuer]

Learning to adapt is the key to everything. Happy New Year