Forms and Applications

[braz24]

Hi All,

When i practice forms from any system I do the forms in multiple different speeds and also different tempos. Once you've learned the form to th epoint of getting past the mechanical stage is the time to change speeds. Slow, medium and full speed is good. What I mean by changing the tempo is changing the the speed a block is made and then changing the following strike's speed too. If you practice full speed all the time, when someone throws a slower-than-your-full-speed technique at you, your timing and therefore your focus, etc. will be off, especially if the opponent throws out a feint or fake. On the other hand, if you are constantly changing the speed/tempo of how you practice your forms, then you won't have near as much difficulty with correct timing responses of techniques.

If you practice your forms like grease lightning and your opponent throws a relatively slower strike at you AND your grease lightning-like reflexes shoot out faster than the strike is throw, well, likely you will miss and the opponent may end the fight for you and against you.

In forms practice and technique practice, we all strive for reflexive response. That comes from creating neural connections in the brain. The more you fire on those neurons(exexcute the technique or form), the larger the neural connection becomes...it's like expanding a two-lane highway to a four-lane highway in a way. The more the brain gets used to firing on those neural connections the more "natural" your techniques become and the closer you get to reflexive response/reaction you get. If you practice your forms at different speeds and combat tempos, your brain will develope and make multiple neural connections for the same form and your body will react at the appropriate speed and power...with of course, the proper focus.

If you only practice full speed, then your brain responds (and therefore your body) at full speed, even if the situation doesn't require that excess in speed. Technically, you could say you've worked in a bad habit. One the other side of the coin, if your opponent is as fast as grease lightning and so are you, then you're all set! No problem.

For me, practicing at all speeds is what I do and to me, it makes the most sense for me. Now from formal schools I studied with in the past, doing your forms at full power medium speed is what was recommended for forms competition.

I don't think practicing at slow speed all the time is a handicap either. You focus on your opponent during forms practice much better. After all, look at the practicing speed of the tai chi students. They are still firing on those neurons just like the "faster" external stylists. Kinda shoots a hole in my take on forms speed...or actually compliments it too...oh well...yin and yang, right?

Regardless of how you feel, this all makes for good food for thought.

Jeff

[jay]

Hey Jeff,
All that food for thought has made me hungry. Gary always said that if someone does their forms too fast, there is no technique. I agree. It's hard to visualize the other side with too much speed. I think quality gets lost with excessive speed.
Jay

[mic]

Hey Jay,
Not wishing but... should you get attacked on the street, I hope you don't respond at Tai Chi speed, either! No offense to Tai Chi pratitioners.
I think Jeff described the various intentions and reasons of practicing forms at various speed. It is not because you cannot see the blow coming at you that it is not focused and efficient. You just blinked at the wrong time, that's all. ;D

[Gary Steuer]

Tai chi has its good points and its bad points as far as effectivenss. What I was really getting at was the people you see at competitions who blaze through a form and have started a new movement before finishing the previous one. when you try to move that fast you'll notice that you are paying more attention to your feet than where your blocking and striking should be. when I say feet I don't mean stance. the faster the hands move the faster the feet move also and you'll see that these people never have a solid stance.
As far as being put to the test in the street, I've never worried about who or how many. I've let my body take care of itself and it has never let me down. Has anyone who has ever used their art for protection ever noticed that when things go down everything seems to move in slow motion. When your adrenalin starts to flow it's as if time stands still. It doesn't really matter if it's a fight or if you have fallen off a bike or something else where your body has been in danger. Time will slow down ! The actual speed you do your forms is in direct proportion to your correctness of movement...............

[jay]

Michele,
I never said I did forms at Tai Chi speed or that to visualize one has to do them at at Chi speed.. All I stated was about too much speed.

[mic]

I understand what you are saying, Gary.

Somewhere, on one of the forums, someone (or more than one person) has discussed issues of what is accepted and allowed (or not) in competition regarding sparring and KF. Judges look for what they like best. What KF can do in the street is not allowed in competition, from what I understand.
Now, I haven't competed in KF and my street experience, I have posted at earlier dates.
What is left is sparring. I think I have done and used plenty of both Capoeira and KF, using either style in reflex moves. Again, sparring is controlled and adjusted to the level of the opponent.
When it comes to what felt like life threatening moments like falling off dirt bikes or sky diving, the adrenalin was there but I could not say it felt like slow motion. One second I was on the bike, the next I was on the ground and hurting. One second I was at 12,500 feet, a few seconds later I was landing.
So, back to presentation of a form... my opinion is that we should work and present them at different speeds. Personally, I become aware of different things depending on the speed at which I do a form. Again, no knowledge of competition speed other than being aware of judges preferences in what they want to see.
That was my 2 cents. I'll let others put in their $ ;D

[braz24]

Hi All,

Mic brought up a number of topics that put me in memory lane...Judges and forms competition.

The sad state of competition in the midwest (where I usually live...I'm in Alaska now) for forms places any Chinese forms competitiors in the "soft" division and anyone else (tkd, karate) etc, in the hard forms division. We all know from 5f that are forms when applied hurt the opponent just as if the opponent had been beaten up on by a karateka...pain is pain and how we defeat our oponents in the Chinese martial arts is like comparing Ford and Chevrolet...they are vehicles with 4 wheels, an engine and steering wheel, that gets you where you want to go. 5F versus karate or TKD in a general comparison are no different. All are excellent and effective styles of self-defense but accomplish the same task in different ways (styles). My gripe here is why the separation of soft and hard?

I can answer that too...The midwest (outside of Chicago anyway...Chicago might be the exception) is loaded to the hilt with TKD, shorin ryu, uechi ryu, shotokan, even kuk sul won (sp?) and other more common styles of the martial arts. Chinese styles are a rarity and thus looked at as different and softer. We all know that Chinese styles tend to have a more fluid and (as far as the karateka based judges are concerned) "softer" look to them. We all know that kung fu has both linear and circular techiniques and footwork and we KNOW that these are not "soft" when you're on the receiving end of any of those techniques, your opponent will be in a world of hurt. My point is, in a (midwestern) world of karate judges who do not understand kung fu, you now have a bias developed...this parallels what Mic just brought up. The judges perceive soft as ineffective and hard as the "only way" to defend yourself...We in this forum, know better.

The fact that there are hard and soft divisions in the midestern "open" tournaments would inform you that there is a perceived difference between karate forms (lets just keep things a bit generic and simple) and kung fu forms. The problem is that if a metro area has few kung fu schools and loads of karate schools, whom do you imagine will be judging the soft division forms competitions? "Hard" style karateka judges...ironic, ain't it? <grin>

In this scenario, you find that kung fu forms that look more like karate forms ("hard") get the trophies over authentic/traditional kung fu ("soft") forms. The Chinese martial arts community in the midwest understand and see this "problem" or bias and alter their forms ( a practice I disagree with....but that's me) to match the judge's expectations and make their traditional forms look more karate-like or add in more flashy kicks to look more tae kwon do-like. The few wu shu guys out here in the midwest ( I used to be one in my twenties) don't need to change a thing in that case. Those modifications I mentioned above are looked with by the judges with favor...After all...they understand and relate fancier kicks or "harder" style kicks and punches with what they know and practice themselves...the bias I mentioned.

It was during this time I was practicing Chinese kenpo and Chinese wu shu at the same time that I took note and exception to this bias. For the record...Chinese kenpo and American kenpo are not the same beast. Yes, Ed Parker brought Chinese kenpo (CK) to the lower 48 states from Hawaii....Ed took everything he knew about CK and changed, modified or completely omitted techniques and forms and created American Kenpo (AK). Ed said that AK retained around 15% of CK in it....long side note...I'm sure there are many anti-Ed Parker nay-sayers around, so I thought I would try to straighten some fo the record here....Back to the original discussion...CK is an eclectic system of martial arts and CK as it was taught to me, has a heavy kung fu influence (be care of what you see on youtube...MOST [but not all] of the videos are AK stylists...not CK) and in the midwest, it is labeled and part of the soft divisions I mentioned for forms competition.

Now getting on to sparring competition, we all know that much of what 5f kung fu and (for you who are unfamiliar with it) Chinese kenpo teaches, can not be used in sparring competition...eye-gouges with tiger claws or snake fists for example...elbows anywhere, kicks to the leg or even lower leg...chin na or any grabbing contact for more than a second or two (depending on your local rules for sparring), no sweeps or tripping, etc. So in a way, you must modify your kung fu to match the sparring rules (Yes, I get this is not MMA and everyone wants to keep their eyes in their heads and get up and go to work the next day rather than spend their lives in a hospital) . It can be looked at as a handicap...then again, you can look at it as adapting to a situation (competition). In any case, you must learn to fight (spar) in a generic, watered down, kickboxing fashion...that's my opinion...but where I'm going with this now is that if you gear your actually sparring practice for the kickboxing approach of many tournaments, then when you get in a streetfight, that's more than likely how you will fight....remember that long, drawn out post I made about neurons, firing on neural connections that eventually become reflexes...body will go with what it knows best...if that is sparring techniques...then it will be sparring techniques. If it is kung fu techniques, it will be kung fu you respond with. As long as you come out alive, that is the main thing.... but what I mentioned is a two edged sword...If you compete in forms or sparring, please do not let me talk you out of that....that isn't my intention...My intention is to generate more food for thought for hungery martial artists minds, like mine... At any rate, for those of you who don't know, Chinese kenpo is loaded with eye-gouges, a rabid fixation on groin strikes, head smashes with the elbow, obsessive limb destruction, sweeps, spine wrenching, neck spraining or breaking, leopard paws to the throat, snake spits, chin na techniques until you drop,etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum...really great system like 5f is...all this with a heavy kung fu influence. The point being, most of what you practice in CK (and 5f kung fu) can not be used for competitive sparring.

I think I asked this a while ago...but lieu of sparring, does 5f have any two-man (or women...<grin>) empty hand sparring sets?....you know...formally taught sets rather than just the other side of the individual forms(very effective, I know but not everyone knows them even though they eventually should for all the forms they know.). I know CK has one short two-man set, Hung gar has 4 two-man empty hand sets, and Choy li fut has quite a few never mind two-man weapon sets.

At this stage of my life, my martial art competition days are at and end. I simply practice for this life-long passion and fire thay burns in me still....just because I live and love the martial arts.

Looking back over this long post, I noticed I have been "all over the place" and didn't really get my thoughts organized <laughing>..Oh well, maybe you guys will draw something from all this...but there are biases all over the place in competition...forms and sparring....for many reasons outside of my personal experiences and observations. At any rate....bear with me and my loose thoughts...

Jeff

[braz24]

I had a couple more thoughts from my last post with it's terrible list of typos...

Even in kung fu only tournaments, you have the bias of the judges...some judges don't know or understand soft systems..or maybe they came from northern kung fu systems or even southern (rather than northern). The judges should be open-minded with other styles but unfortuantely (fortunately? depending on your view) they are like you and me...we believe in our kung fu style and would defend it to the end...it is then unfortunate that many then develope their own bias for their own system...judges are no exception. If you are up for forms grand champion and you do 5f forms and your last competitor is northern praying mantis and you both are of equal skill...if the judges come from northern schools (and lets just assume that the judges do not know you or your northern competitor) you could possibly be at a disadvantage due to the judges background..We all know this is possible to have these rivalries....just go to the kung fu magazine forum and read all the arguments that the non-5F stylists have amongst themselves...yikes!!

If you have a bias BUT are also fair and open-minded, then there is no problem. If on the other hand, you can't be fair or open minded to other styles, then you shouldn't be a judge. Plain and simple.

One other point and this may be the most important...regardless of your background and experience...ALL valid martial arts are good systems and will work in self-defense situations. ALL valid systems (valid meaning that Joe Smuckatelli didn't just create a system while he or she was tripping on drugs and decide to make a buck, even though Joe never learned and self defense [ever] in his life) are good systems. We can believe in our styles we practice (rightly so) and trust in our perosnal abilities to defend ourselves (you MUST do this in my opinion) but we (collectively) do not have the right to disrespect (to use more hip wording here) anyone else's style...period. Part of practicing kung fu (and any of the martial arts) is being humble and being of good moral character and fiber. In my opinion, respecting other styles is part of being humble. I think that is where many in MMA fall short...not all though...many in MMA ( I came from that background before injuries and surgery...I was not of that negative mindset I'm talking about...for the record) have nothing but contempt for tradtional martial arts and anyone else besides themselves...Don't get me wrong...not everyone is of the thug mentality but there aren't many gyms that teach what old-school (and hopefully presnt-day) martial art values, ethics, and morals...I'm a big MMA proponent and a big tradtional style proponent (you can be both without much deliberation) but MMA focuses on competion rather than ethics etc. Then it is up to the individual in MMA how he or she vocalizes their biases etc.....make sense?

Hopefully, you guys get what I'm trying to say. I'm not preaching...just making conversation...I've (obviously) got a bit of time on my hands...we're in the middle of several days downpour of all manners of precipitation her in Alaska and so I thought I would drop in a few lines...now, it's time to practice!

Jeff

[mic]

Very stimulating conversation going on. I like to pick brain including my own. However, might we be stepping besides the "Plate."
I think we practitioners all love what we do and all do it for a variety of reasons, in a variety of "ways" even though we, in KF5 come from the same lineage: Ark Y Wong.

Just like on a dance floor, filled with human beings, we all move our body in different ways and single or double tempo if we wish to do so. Personally, I dance better alone, without drunks trying to step on my toes, and I prefer a lot of space around me, so I can dance as "Crazy" as I feel like dancing!

Back to KF, I think Jeff has explained quite well the "Expectations" of judges and how some (or most?) competitors adapt to what the judges want to see or what is actually allowed in competition sparring versus what we learn and cannot use in competition.
So, who are we to "Judge" the valiance of a form or sparring? What are we looking for in practicing KF or other MA? Personally, I think that eventually it leads us away from violence for the sake of violence, brings us discipline that we can use thoughout all areas of our life and maybe, just maybe, it could even lead us to: tolerance, if we only let it.
So, long story short: how about being open to try fast or slow (whichever you are NOT used to practicing) and see what it does to you?
Want the shorter version of this message?
TRY IT, YOU MIGHT LIKE IT! You might discover another facette you were not allowing yourself to explore AND quit being so judgmental about the way others do things and FOCUS on bettering YOURSELF in your practice leading to the rest of your life experiences, outside the place where you practice KF.
Those who know me, know that I get upset and annoyed fairly fast, and in an explosive manner. (Latin temper? I also move on, by the way, and forget what the ordeal was about by the next day or sometimes longer.)
The main reasons are:
1) Because I do not see the same way as that person is seeing at the time.
2) Because communication ceases to happen with 2 closed minds unwilling to listen to the other party.
3) Because I have a very hard time with people who I see as "Know-It-All" while I see major errors in the way they move (ie: breating exercises performed wrongly) even though they have been practicing for years and should (one would think they should) know better, which brings us back to closed-mindedness.
4) Because the demeaning tone of voice is an absolute turn off coming from someone who, as a teacher, should be humble, respectful of others above, below or at same level... we are all human beings far from perfection.
Somewhere in a book about MA, I read that we HAVE TO empty our cup for more knowledge to fit in the cup. Time to dump your cup and possibly try another tea, or same tea if you really like the flavor but a different brand? ;D

Far from perfection,
Mic

[jay]

Hi Gary,
In the majority of our forms, after the salute portion and in closing, when we bring out right fist into the left palm, are they touching, or do we always leave a space like in the slow set?
Thanks.

[Gary Steuer]

Some forms have the hands touching in order to use the strength of the whole body behind the movement. In the power form for example they do not touch. This is because you are learning to isolate the strength into certain areas. This is learned after you have to rely less on the full strength of the body behind your movement.

[braz24]

Just curious....Why is the blackbird named so? Most forms that have an animal name seem to either resemble movements of that animal in combat and/or show th spirit of the animal in the form.

Does anyone know?

Jeff

[jingwah]

For a good part of the Blackbird form you are crouching down on one heel blocking something coming at your head and cutting upwards with a strike at something above you. The form resembles what one would do if attacked by blackbirds. Some blackbirds are pretty territorial and will dive at your head as you walk near their nest. Trying to drive you off. I have read about colonies of nesting birds making areas a little tough to walk through. I have been attacked by territorial birds and one does do a little bit of the blackbird. Chinese peasants squatting in a rice paddy or other field while working would naturally do moves like those in the Blackbird when jumped by nesting birds. So it is, in a sense, truly an animal form.

[blackravin]

Ravens and Crows which fall under the same family are such birds that will attack if you enter their territory and especially if you enter their nesting grounds. Which by the way is Jan. thru March of every year.. They are fierce fighters and when hungry will pierce their prey right thru the eye cavity to bring them down. Although, a fierce animal they are also presumed to have the power in many cultures to be mischievious and are able to travel from the land of the living to the land of the dead.. Although, many disagree with me in regards to what bird is referred to in this form, I would say it's either the Raven or the Crow and if it's not then just let me keep believing it is.

BlackRavin (a.ka. El Cuervo)

[jay]

Hi Gary,
When Ark Wong taught you the 5 foot staff form, did you use one of his staffs? If so, was it hardwood or the type that is flexible? I cracked my oak pole slamming in on the ground from the roll recently and I was thinking that the flexible kind would absorb impact better.
Jay