Forms and Applications

[Gary Steuer]

The pole was a rattan . Very solid but flexible. Smooth and dark like a regular staff , about 1 " in diameter.

[braz24]

Hey Gary,

I understand that Ark used to teach 5 of each of the animal forms for a total of 25 "pure" animal forms in his system. (5 snake, 5 tiger, 5 dragon, 5 leopards, and 5 crane forms for a total of 25) If a student knew the first 5 animal forms (snake 1, tiger 1, dragon 1, leopard 1, crane 1), what was the "prescribed"order for the remaining 20 pure animal forms?

Also, 5F has the "tiger in the hole" . Which "number" of tiger form is it? Or is it possible that it's a form outside of the original 25 pure animal forms?

Just curious about how Ark taught forms.

Thanks in advance! :-)

Jeff

[Gary Steuer]

Hi Jeff ,
The Tiger in the hole was the second tiger taught. There was 1- tiger. 2- tiger in the hole. 3- side tiger. 4- old tiger . 5- wounded tiger. There are others who claim to have learned the bull, the elephant, God knows what... All the years I spent with Master Wong I never even heard about that.. Then again, who can say no, Master Wong isn't here.

[braz24]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the reply!

Do all the other animal forms that I mentioned above, have names like the tiger forms do? If so, what are they?

If Ark were around to teach a person all 25 animal forms (over time), after the first 5 (pure) animal forms, what is the order a student would likley learn the rest? Maybe the better question would be, what order did Ark teach you all the (pure) animal forms that you know?

Sorry to ask a zillion questions, but I find all this fascinating! ;-)

Thanks,

Jeff

[steeve]

Howdy Gary hope all is good for you...

Jeff howdy buddy

forms are just sequence of motion .....after you are teach one form you could do ur owns forms ....forms are just solo training
a training method.....if you want you could have 100 tiger forms.

forms are there for teach you the basics of each animals....

each animals haver their own Intention or spirit....their own weapons and attribute but ur are a human being ....you have to fit that to you to be effective ...... ;D

Steeve

[Gary Steuer]

Hi Steeve. Good to hear from you... You are mostly right... Learning kung fu is like going to school. you go through all your required studies and then you progress to a university level where free thought and research is encouraged...Not really any different... Sorry, I'm a little slow on the internet, they had to increase my meds and I'm a little tired...

[braz24]

Hey Gary,

I was just wondering if 5F had any formal two-man empty hand forms at all? If so do you have any idea of how many they were or what their names were?

I know Hung gar has at least four, two-man empty hand sets. I got to wondering if any of these were an integral part of 5F kung fu because Hung is one of the 5 influencing families of 5F kung fu.

Jeff

[Gary Steuer]

there are many 2 man forms in our style, both with weapons and without.......... I can't remember names too well.. There are tiger & crane, snake and leopard, drunk and sober,
knife and stick, stick and hands, butterfly knives and knife, it just goes on........ There are lots....GM Wong personnally knew 300 sets from our 5 family style and then there were forms he would not teach from the other 2 styles that he knew.............

[braz24]

Hey Gary,

Ark knowing over 300 forms is just amazing!

All those two-man sets sound pretty cool!! Has anyone that you know of in the states been taught any of these you listed?

Also, you listed the tiger-crane two-man set. I know that Hung gar and fu jow pai have tiger-crane sets...I think they're a bit different from each other in at least the order of techniques.

Do you know if the Hung gar tiger-crane two-man set is the same as 5F's two man tiger crane set?

You can see the Hung gar version of this performed on youtube by Wing Lam...If I can find the link, I'll post it later.

I just found the link and edited this post:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NybCqJK8Cc&feature=related

Does this look like the 5F version of the tiger cran two man set?

Jeff

[Gary Steuer]

Very similar..... We did lots of forms..... I taught about 10 , 2 person sets... When i was working out in Hong Kong I went over the tiger-crane sets with Jow Ji Ling and they are almost identical to the sets of GM Wong..........

[braz24]

Hey Gary,

That's pretty interesting for sure! I personally think that two man froms are great to drive home the way kung fu was designed to do self defense. It blows me away that regardless of the styles I've been involved with, when people spar, everyone goes into the "generic" kickboxer mode. The way they spar then looks nothing like the style they've been studying for years. (disclaimer...no generic kickboxers were hurt in the posting of this post on this thread. ;-) ) Generic kickboxing has it's place and some benefits, for sure. But if a person's chosen martial art of study is kung fu (5F in this case), why not learn to apply it like it was studied? After all, 5F has stood the test of time to be a great system of self-defense.

I get that many techniques in kung fu are dangerous (with regards to sparring) but in the two man forms (especially the empty hand sets), you get to apply all the techniques that are dangerous but also you get to defend against the dangerous techniques too (assuming you know both sides of the two-man form). Of course, you learn to condition your limbs against strikes and it's good cardio too. In MOST cases, no gets hurt either. Learning the combat "tempo" and rthymn (sp?) of your style is great too. Two man forms get the neural connections in the brain formed to teach your body to naturally apply the techniques of your forms without having to think about it...the whole point of any martial art is to make self defense reflexive rather than having to think about it. Solo forms practice is essential but I think that two-man forms are just as important if not more important to take a person's martial arts up a notch. Practicing the other side of the solo form is also very important but, the two man forms make the combat that you simulate in two man forms and make it seamless and give it a combat flow.

Besides all that, doing two man forms is actually pretty fun. I've done a few two man forms over the years. The bad thing is the two-man form I learned in Chinese kenpo was pretty lame but better than nothing. Choy li fut is loaded with two man forms...empty hand and weapons.

Does anyone in LA know any empty hand sets from 5F kung fu?

Jeff

[steeve]

Jeff

You said

It blows me away that regardless of the styles I've been involved with, when people spar, everyone goes into the "generic" kickboxer mode. The way they spar then looks nothing like the style they've been studying for years.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT..... :)thats the real question why all this kung fu players dont fight like the style they play...

Fight the way U train is the motto.....

Steeve

[jay]

Hey Steeve,
Your statement "kung fu players dont fight like the style they play..." is quite true. The fighting is not serious and is just playing. Maybe it's harder than we think to use the style or the forms are not practiced with the right mind-set. Gary has told us over the years that a move has to be done 100,000 times to become automatic. If one knows a fair number of forms, think how long that will take for all those movements to be natural. And the repetition has to be done correctly as well. Excelling at kung fu can take a lifetime. Kick and punch is a different story.

[mic]

What has helped me tremendously in sparring in KF is:

1) the practice of Judo when I was a kid:
Having to throw higher belts down as sparring with kids of my level resulted in MY bruised chins. Kids would kick instead of taking me off balance to throw me.

2) Playing Capoeira, both slow and fast. It is supposed to be a no-contact or hardly any contact game. Controlling moves starts in slow games. More control (of not hitting the partner), speed and accuracy comes with fasted games.

We use the words "Games" or "Play" to say: sparring to music in "Capoeira."

Those two other MAs have really helped me not be afraid to face an opponent!

When I was practicing both KF and Capoeira, 6 days a week, one style would automatically show up in the other MA. I still remember what you filmed of our Capoeira group, Gary. It might have been the first time I became aware of the overlap.

[Gary Steuer]

People have been sending me footage of our forms that are shown on youtube........... All I can really so is " No comment. " GM Wong told me one time that if a form is done especially fast it's because the person doesn't know the form... They are covering their lack of knowledge of the particular form by repeating it as fast as possible so as not to forget a movement......... You'll also notice that the person doing the form is constantly looking at their feet so they'll remember the next move.....

When you do your form, become your form. When you do an animal form you have to think as that animal would think. Then you can mimic the movement and you can become the animal. Watch people doing their forms. I don't care if they are doing the small cross or they are doing the crane..... it looks the same !
If you've had to teach people forms, and everyone does at one time or another, the person learning will ask " What's next ? " GM Wong would always say to them , you learn the move already, ok, next move and he would show them something and they would keep asking and he would make up something, something that even he wouldn't remember , and the person would be happy and the next day they would forget what they had done also............... Point is , it's not quantity, it's quality ! GM Wong would watch everyone , and he would see who was practicing or not.. Some would do a little bit and then sit down because they were tired and they would read a comic book......... He saw all this... He was a firm believer of you get out of it what you put into it........... Our class was not run like a militarized boot camp karate school. If you were sincere and had the drive and the heart to want to learn, he taught you............. If he saw you practicing diligently and not asking for the next move, he would take you aside and show you the next 3 movements, never more than 3........ Goes back to Chinese numerology, series of 3 for a total of 9 and then to repeat the cycle.......... Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself.... I think it's the meds ! Let me know what you think ....